Fandom Discussion - Tumblr Posts
I think most people would, if they knew my stance on shipping, put me into the pro shipping category.
But I feel uncomfortable being labeled this way because I very much have limits.
I don't think people should write fanfiction or draw explicit fanart of characters being played (or voiced) by underage actors (and ofc the same applies to explicit rpf of said actors).
I just think the risk of these young, valuable people coming across these fanworks featuring either them or their likeness is too high (and one also has to remember the natural curiosity to check out stuff featuring them).
I don't think I'm being unreasonable here, but what do you think?
I think that that's a reasonable stance and perspective, to have.
The common assumption about proshipping is that you absolutely have to support and endorse absolutely everything and if you don't you're backsliding into being an anti, or you're not fully a proshipper.
But here's the thing; that's not actually the core meaning or value of proshipping. Proshipping does not inherently negate or demand that you have absolutely no limits or that you can't inherently disagree with or be uncomfortable with certain things.
Everyone has certain limits and certain things they simply cannot support or agree with. And that's perfectly fine. Where proshipping comes into it is recognising that everyone has that right, and also the right to still create and engage with things that you personally don't.
Its absolutely fine not to want to identify as a proshipper if you feel that your stance and your limits might be misperceived by using the label. Proshipping does have its inherent meaning and core values, but everyone also uses the label differently and assigns different, personal interpretations and values to it.
There's no obligation to use labels in fandom spaces at all, and there's also no obligation to have an 'all or nothing' stance. I know people who are, by definition, antis, but they're also heavily anti-harassment. They don't think that, morally, I should be writing incest porn, but they also recognise that even if I do, it doesn't necessarily mean I support it in real life either.
Being concerned about how fiction might impact real people is a very considerate, respectful concern to have. Its also why fandom spaces need to remain self-moderated in terms of properly using tags, filters, ect. Another common misconception people have about proshipping and anti-censorship is the assumption that we want to be able to just throw pornography and fiction around anywhere and everywhere, but actually, we still very much believe that everything has its place, and that there are proper, respectful ways and places to host content.
There's a lot of rambling I could do about the symbiosis of respect and moderation between a person/their guardians and fandom content creators, but that would be digressing slightly.
(And the point that a lot of fanfiction about teenagers and minors is written by teenagers and minors.)
The general gist is;
Your opinion is not unreasonable. Nor do I think any less of you for it. Nor would any proshipper, really. That's your concern, your limit, and that should be respected. In the same way that you would need to respect that that content does, and will always, exist, and the people who do write it with the proper measures taken are no less deserving of at the very minimum, your acceptance of the fact that they have a right to.
Proshipping is not:
Having no limits at all.
Thinking that you MUST create absolutely any and all content.
Thinking that you MUST support absolutely any and all content.
Thinking that nobody ever can be uncomfortable with or disinterested in what you create or what is being created.
Proshipping is:
Understanding fiction is not a 1:1 reflection of a person's real interests beliefs, values or their moral standings.
Understanding that fiction is not reality. It does not create victims.
That within the bounds of law, people have a right to create content, even if its content you personally do not support or agree with.
Understanding you do not have the right to dictate what someone can or cannot create, and that you do not have the right to be cruel or harmful to them because of what they create.
Yeah it's been disheartening to see. I miss the times when I could jump into a fandom in my own time and still find it brimming with life. I guess this might be a product of just how much media there is, too much to choose from and consume ;-;,
I hate how fandom has become "if you haven't created anything in this very specific time frame after the release of the show/movie, everyone will have moved on"
And call me old fashioned, but that's just not me. I sometimes take ages to create and publish. And I will love a show or movie for such a long time (years, babes, years) that I just can't relate to the fast consumerism that's going on.
Because, let's be real, it can get really lonely in a fandom if most have simply moved on to the next shiny thing. Is what's created less worth, just because it was created outside the hype? Why is it such a taboo for this new fandom generation to love an old or "late" fic or art?
It's so tiring and I'm too old for the 30-seconds-hype-tiktok-shit. Just tired. So, so tired.
AHHHH SHIT IT'S ME AGAIN?!
HOW DO THEY KEEP TALKING ME INTO THIS apart from the gentle encouragement, steadfast friendship, enthusiastic invitations and constant support, that is
Just kidding! Anyone who's heard me talk about Sandra and Kasey knows how much I love chatting away into the wee hours of the morning with them. So when they asked if I might be willing to help assemble this episode of their Fact Versus Fiction series, of course I was going to say yes!
The ep is all about sexual hygiene, the icky, sticky realities of it, and the way we mostly prefer to sweep it under the rug when it comes to our fic, especially when it includes butt stuff.
In this first episode (because, surprise surprise, we had a lot to say about... well... everything and ended up splitting it into two parts), it's all about hands, mouths, penises, and vaginas (to the tune of 'heads and shoulders, knees and toes', all together now! đ¶)!
No, that's notâ Actually, sure, close enough.
Anyway, if you'd like to know to keep them clean and safe, how to get them ready for mashing together, and how to help them (and you) live your best, squeaky clean sex-life, all while enjoying a hearty dose of wtfs, tangents, TMIs, and mortified laughter, check out the episode wherever you prefer to listen to your podcasts and join us in the back seat! See you there!
New Episode Alert!
Welcome to the first Tumblr exclusive new episode post. We're no longer updating our twitter account so it's all you beautiful peeps now ^.^
Anyway, that means I no longer just copy paste my twitter posts here, so bare with me while I find a new format that's both funny & informative.
BUT
What an episode we're starting with.
This week is a brand new Fact vs Fiction episode! With a special guest host as well. @runawaydr3amerao3 joins us as the newly appointed Agent of Filth and Depravity to assist our resident Agent of Chaos and Kink to talk all things sex & hygiene.
Part 1 of Fact Versus Fiction - Love All Your Bits or at least Look After Them is now live!
Watch/Listen here Class reading materials here
Enjoy!
Oh, yeah, it's the one you've all been waiting forâ
Wait, no, not that one, Dean killed him already, remember?
I mean, once or twice.
It's the other one you've all been waiting for since you found out it would be coming after the last episode! Tell 'em, Sammy!
That's right! It's...
Hygiene stuff! Butt sex/play hygiene stuff!
Whether you're a veteran of real life anal or you've only ever encountered it in porn; whether you're into Wincest, Reader Insert, Megstiel, or Jonna; whether you're a slash writer of old or a newcomer to fanfiction where things get explicit in that particular area, come along for the ride while we shed some light in a dark place.
Okay, Dean, put it away, that's very distracting.
Uh, what wasâ Right, yeah. Fic writers have always been hesitant to get into the nitty gritty of realistic anal sex and the hygiene prep and practices it involves. That 'sanitisation', along with lack of education in the area can lead to a lot of misconceptions and the rise of taboos. Well, lucky for us, that's what the Fact Versus Fiction series is all about!
Remember, y'all, it's a butt. Shit happens!
New Episode Alert!
Part 2 of Fact Versus Fiction - Love All Your Bits or at least Look After Them is now live!
@runawaydr3amerao3 joins us as the newly appointed Agent of Filth and Depravity to assist our resident Agent of Chaos and Kink to talk all things sex & hygiene.
Watch/Listen here Class reading materials here
Enjoy!
I WATCHED IT IT'S SO RIGHT
I read the book w/ Bumble in it (I legitimately don't remember its name sob) about 4 years ago, and the way everyone treated her made me stop reading DotC because it made me so angry. I still haven't gone back to finish it and I don't know if I will tbh
The part that pissed me off the most was how Gray Wing was such a little bitch the whole time. At least at the time -- so in 2020 -- people were still mostly very fond of him. I got into several arguments about it and people didn't take me seriously, although that may have been because the people I talked with were around my age and may not have had a fully developed understanding of the issues Bumble's whole thing exemplifies. I also didn't have adequate vocab to express what was wrong with what i had read, which didn't help.
Also, the point Moonkitti makes about Bumble and weight is really interesting. It's so annoying how generally fatphobic kids' media is (thinking about Harry Potter rn).
Very good video overall
BUMBLE TIME
BUMBLE TIME
I honestly kinda hate this movie because the damage its done to fandom discourse it's unleashed
In my experience anyone who doesn't like something in a show and makes AU fanfic gets this smug little meme
they don't want to communicate and open a dialogue, they want to sit down, lecture, and shoot people down and smugly congratulate themselves like they committed some act for the greater good.
I think thats whats modern fandom is now, lecturing everyone up and down and all around and high up on an ivory tower because "muh canon event". These people don't want to relate to anyone because they want to be "above it all"
There's no real dialogue anymore
Reasons I think Crowley is Raphael:
1: He was high enough ranking that he was given permission to create the Heavens and work within the divine plan.
2. In S2 we see that he has access to Heaven's interface, something Uriel says only high-ranking Angels can do.
3. In an exchange with Shax in season 2, episode 1, she says that a powerful angelic miracle occurred in assumption that Gabriel is in Aziraphale's store and Crowley responds: "How'd you know I didn't do it?"
4. Re that same point: When he and Az do a "half" miracle each it equates to an archangel level one.
5. Raphael is the only archangel not mentioned so far.
6. Raphael is traditionally associated with fostering harmonious unions, love, and marriage. He tries to unite Nina and Maggie through an orchestrated natural phenomenon. When Az questions the easiness of such a thing he dismisses it in a way that implies he knows from experience.
7. Raphael was also known as a healer and Crowley heals the maimed shopkeeper after the demons attack the bookshop, which he didn't have to do.
8. Regarding being a healer, he is extremely outraged that the gravedigger girl wants to kill herself and puts the "fear of God" into her by showing his power to make her swear she'll never try that again and will instead live a good life.
9. He also makes the paintball guns real in season 1 but then also makes everyone miraculously survive each shot, like he doesn't want to hurt them.
10. He doesn't kill Job's flock or children because he didn't want to hurt them either.
11. He hates Gabriel and clearly wants to beat his ass for what he said to Az when he was being sentenced to death. Instead he tells him to jump out of the window but at the last second, as he's obeying, Crowley tells him to stop and looks upset, then leaves in annoyance.
The last 5 points are all things that would go against a healer's nature.
What do you think?
Amen.
Some people will get to literally say "I would like the plot and the ship dynamics to be the exact same JUST change the woman for a dude and that's perfect" đ
iâm gay but iâm always gonna choose the well developed straight ship over the 2 bland and incompatible white dudes that have 500,000 fanfics written about them. you guys just hate women.
Same here đ©
Some side effects I hate are the authors changing the original script just to accommodate the incoherent requests of rabid "fans" whose noise could cancel out the swifties at an Eras tour concert (love y'all swifties âš), thus ruining the entire plot of a story
AAAAND speaking of books here, the fact that supposedly mature books now have the reading level of a 6 y/o, just because they have to appeal to a mass-mainstream "fandom" that just pics up books for aesthetic and because it's "cool and edgy".
I know the genie is out of the bottle and you can't go back but dear GOD I hate the mainstreamification of fandom so much
I do NOT want authors or showrunners or actors to acknowledge us or talk about fanfic or fanart or fan theories! I do NOT want people asking questions of the canon creators and getting them answered (make up your own answers, like god intended!) I do NOT want companies making jokey advertisements aimed toward fandom!
I know that fandom was never entirely underground but like... I miss that fourth wall existing, you know?
There's something so strange about how online fandom discourse has reached this point. I'll use the above interaction as a jumping off point because I've actually been meaning to talk about this for a while (I've already done so with my friends) and this makes it easier to have a frame of reference going forward.
So, for now, ignoring the underlying tones and approach of the asker, lets grapple with the question. Is it possible for two people with incredibly different takes on the exact same work of art to engage meaningfully about the art together? I wholeheartedly believe that is the case, provided both parties are willing to have that discussion. Coming into someone's critical space and shouting down at them to 'let people enjoy things', a phrase I thoroughly despise, certainly isn't going to open up that discussion. And to cover my bases, the inverse is true: entering a positive fandom space and calling everyone's taste trash isn't going to cultivate any meaningful conversations either. And I don't doubt that people know this, as I have personally had engaging conversations about media I personally dislike with people who do enjoy it; in most recent memory this is Murder Drones, but I won't get into the gritty details as to *why* I dislike the show here. A post for another time.
So clearly an inability to communicate isn't the issue. Rather, I believe the issue is the 'us vs them' mentality that has been fostered in fandoms since the very beginning. The issue has certainly exacerbated over the years, but let's not pretend like early fandom was a utopia. Fandom most notoriously has had shipping wars since forever, which originally were wholly fandom-contained. The larger public generally only knew about shipping wars either from personal experience within the fandom, or later as the fighting got so intense that real world consequences (or rumours of such) occurred. Now, however, fandom isn't content to remain within its own spaces. We've *moralized* fandom, linked our participation with media to whether we are good or bad people, decided what is acceptable and unacceptable to like on the larger scale. On some level there is something to be said about how one engages with media might say something about them, but this is largely on a case by case basis and in addition to other facts about someone. Someone who likes Harry Potter might not be transphobic, but with additional context (ie, subtly implying there are less 'worthy' trans people) it might say something about this person that they choose to engage with that media.
Back to fandom at large. So we've linked our worth as people to fandom, and now fandom has become something of a taboo topic similar to religion and politics. You only discuss these things with people already within your group, as others outside the group clearly are participating in blaspheme or some such. To criticize a work in any capacity is to attack the group, the individual, and thus conversation is dead on arrival. How do you have a conversation with someone so entrenched in their beliefs they refuse to ever engage in good faith with someone outside of them? Personally, I still have the energy to respond to even bad faith questions earnestly in the hopes that I could get at least one person to, if not change their mind, at least see another perspective. For others, however, it's easier and typically less draining mentally and emotionally to not engage. I don't blame Chai for his response in the least, as he gets these sorts of dead-end bad faith engagements very frequently.
It still depresses me, honestly. I quite like talking about art. I would love to have a frank and civil discussion with someone who wholly loves media I passionately despise, and vice versa, because I want to understand the perspectives of people who connect with things I cannot and those who don't connect with what touches me deeply. Unfortunately in the current fandom climate that is made difficult at best, impossible at worse, and I wish I had a solution. Maybe if we brought back book clubs that would fix things.
Be kind to each other. Approach your fellow human with a willingness to learn and understand. Incuriosity isn't a trait, it's a behavior.
Could you have a frank and normal discussion with someone who disagrees in absolutely anything you say about Helluva Boss S2's quality?
Because, yes, as surprising as it is, there are people who are actually enjoying the direction of the series currently and it's writing.
Bruv idk, you just seems to be so engulfed in your bubble that I don't think the idea of ppl enjoying HB S2 and being able to counter argument your points is even possible.
Not when you come out of the gate like that, I can't.
I have a genuine question because I just want peoples thoughts on it, and I want to do it in a way that doesnât start any arguments please: but I sometimes see people complaining about the p3do Mori stuff and I understand the emotional aspect but I donât get some other things. Like Iâm perfectly aware that some people may prefer to distance themselves or completely avoid such topics because it affects them more severely than other or they may have past trauma. Makes sense. But I never really saw the Mori and Dazai thing as a headcanon that people believe or hope to be true, rather as a thought of what mightâve happened or a theory. This is usually based on Moriâs very canonical behaviors regarding Yosano as a child, and how Elise was made in the image of a child. I personally donât think that Mori did something like that to Dazai in canon, but the theory doesnât really bother me much ig? With the BSD world being dark as a whole the grossness of the theory sadly kind of fits r despite being non canon or used in AUs and itâs not like I often see anyone fetishizing it, rather they treat it as the gross thing it is. I know the book and author Mori was based off of was not indicative of p3dopillia but the BSD character very clearly seems to be hinted at that. Especially the âI like the women in my life to be under 12â thing. People usually use âitâs played as a joke!â Or âwhy would Kouyo and Chuuya follow him then?â And I think people overlook the fact that anime is renowned for making light of things they probably shouldnât (doesnât mean the anime isnât good though) and the fact that itâs a mafia and you canât just STOP following the boss without threatening your very life. At least not in normal circumstances (Dazai is an exception). So yeah I was just wondering, do you guys think the Mori and Dazai theory is inherently morally wrong or do you just donât see it as canon/you donât like to talk about such disgusting topics?
