Antishipping - Tumblr Posts

"Why can't the freaks on AO3 just go and make a site for all the gross stuff and leave AO3 alone."

Because AO3 is that site. Because AO3 was that site long before you decided AO3 was better than the sites you bullied us off of before, and I can promise you if someone somehow comes up with a fanfic site you like better specifically for the 'gross stuff' you'll try to bully us off that too so you can benefit from it.

AO3's specific core purpose is to preserve fanfiction, yes, but it was also instigated as a host site for the fanfiction that kept getting yeeted off other platforms like Wattpad. Its designed to preserve all fanfiction, not just the fanfiction you, personally, think is 'allowed' to be written.

AO3 is the site for all the gross stuff the freaks make. We've been there just as long as you. We've been funding it just as long as you have. AO3 has specifically said you have a place here. The timeline was literally:

Wattpad/FF.net/LiveJournal purge fanfics > AO3 is born > The people who's fics got purged moved over to AO3 > AO3 gains popularity as the best functioning site > The people who pushed for the fics to be purged off Wattpad move to AO3 > The same people try to push for AO3 to purge fics.

AO3's source coding is open-access. You go make a polished, strict, rigid site where nothing 'icky' is allowed. You go make a site where you can control what is hosted. We already have our space.

Imagine this:

You live in a town. There is a park that allows both people and dogs. You live in this town and decide dogs should not be allowed at the park. You complain and push and get dogs banned from the park.

The town builds another park for the dogs. Now there is a dog park and a people park. You see the dog park and think it looks better than the people park. You, a person who neither owns a dog nor likes dogs, begins to use the dog park.

That's okay. The dog owners don't mind sharing their park. Its a nice park. Its definitely better than the people park.

You like the dog park better, but you don't like the dogs, so you tell the dog owners they're not allowed to go there anymore. They're not welcome. Its a dog park, but you personally don't like dogs, so they're not allowed to bring their dogs here anymore. You start harassing the dog owners and trying to bully them out of the park.

"Just go to a different park!" you yell at them. "Go build your own park if you want to bring your dogs in!" you cry.

You are an anti. The dogs are works of fiction. The park is AO3. Your perspective is as ridiculous as the above anecdote sounds. AO3's entire existence was founded on you encouraging sites like Wattpad to purge and ban fanfiction that didn't fit certain, bias-flexible criteria. AO3's core purpose is to host and preserve fanfiction.

If AO3 did not want that kind of fanfiction, it would not allow it. Simple. AO3 itself dictates that fanfiction has a place there. You cannot storm in and demand its not allowed to host it because you've finally realized sites like Wattpad fucking suck, and not just because of their content regulations.

You're a guest in AO3's park. Act like it. Don't like the rules? Their code is open-source. Build your own park.

I feel like the pro vs anti thing is kind of reductive? Like it's more than just shipping and morality after a certain point, it kind of just becomes censorship vs anti-censorship? And I feel like if it were talked about like that discussions would be easier/actually result in something?

Like I'm very anti-censorship, but some stuff is gross to me personally, but do I think people shouldn't be able to make stuff? No, it's up to me to not read it.

Like, if we remove the whole morality thing from shipping exclusively we can probably have an actual discussion about if people sharing certain stuff does cater to pedophiles or whatever, and the stuff about "it's only okay if you're traumatized" being kind of icky, and actually come to a productive solution? I don't know if this makes sense.

The issue in trying to boil down the current concept(s) of proshipping and anti-shipping to detached semantics is that proshipping, in becoming nuanced and an umbrella term, has voided itself of the capability to become "just" anything.

Proshipping has also expanded to encompass not just fandom and fictional content, but reality too, largely out of necessity because a core component of the "anti" rhetoric is you are what you create/consume. Thus proshipping now no longer singularly refers to fiction and fandom, but to you as a person, your values, and how you behave in life outside of the internet.

Like I'm very anti-censorship, but some stuff is gross to me personally, but do I think people shouldn't be able to make stuff? No, it's up to me to not read it.

This is being proship at its most basic definition. A common misconception about proshipping is you have to actively support, consume or enjoy the content to which its being applied in that instance, and that is simply false. The amount of times I've seen "antis" make a post saying they're not proship, but... And then what they proceed to state is exactly what proshipping is at its core is laughable. Its simply the broader label and some variable definitions they refuse to be linked with.

In terms of whether content created would "cater to" certain demographics... If you want to start that argument, that would only feed into censorship and a sanitized world where you can't let kids play with nerf guns and everyone has to walk around in head to toe shrouding garments to avoid "catering to" perverts and pedophiles. Its redundant to say; "but this caters to pedophiles!" when literally all a pedophile has to do is look out of their window. Or load up Google. Or turn on the TV. Children and children in various states of undress are everywhere. A mother taking her son into a grocery store could be catering to a pedophile.

I hate to say it, but Law and Order: SVU actually has some very good episodes depicting just how truly varied stimulants are to people with active, dangerous paraphilias. Everyone loves to say that pedophiles are only stimulated by X type of depiction of children, but that is truly, truly not the case. Walking past a child on the street can be enough for that pedophile to fantasise about that child. And what is the solution there? Lock all children up in windowless buildings until they're eighteen? Is it then unethical for parents to take their children outside knowing at any moment a pedophile can look at them and fantasise about them?

Likewise, that would still be a moral argument, because you're intrinsically arguing if that person is "wrong" for creating content with the acknowledgement that a pedophile could/will read it, and seek stimulation from it. You're trying to discern the morality of producing something which has the capability to cause, mimic or lead to active harm.

There's also the concept of "radical" proshipping which even I, myself, disagree with on certain levels and points.

Unfortunately, the proship vs antiship argument will never have an actual solution, because it technically isn't a problem, its just two opposing perspectives on ethics, morality and personal comfort, which you cannot force a change in. Likewise each definition fluctuates and is so heavily nuanced that they overlap in ways you cannot simply tear apart and enforce into two defined boxes. You can argue the merits and validity of as many points as you like, but often when someone is tying the issue to who they are as a person and to a reflection of themselves in the public eye, they're not going to want to change to a stance that would be perceived as "wrong."

I do agree with your overall desire for broader and varied discussions, though. I agree that sometimes each side gets stuck on a pinhead argument that becomes a carousel of the same points over and over until it collapses and turns into arguments and insults and accusations. Its part of why I started this blog, to try and help facilitate open, nuanced discussions about the true near boundless nature of proshipping vs antishipping, and to try and at the least help each side clearly see and understand the opposite's perspective, even if they don't agree with it.

There's less a "solution" to proshipping vs antishipping as there is finding a semi-stable middleground between each side maintaining civility within communication, and understand and accepting that there's nuance and overlap between both perspectives.

fun fact for anyone confused: the only group of people that consists just of pedophiles is a group of pedophiles. not a racial group or nationality; not a sexual identity; not a fanbase, JUST pedophiles.

saying that every person in a specific group is a pedophile on the premise that you don't like them and needing a biting way to insult them is not only stupid and incorrect, it's pretty fucking dangerous-- and i don't feel like i need to explain why it's dangerous.

You're absolutely not stupid, and please don't cry! Like I said, its a very common misconception and narrative, and actually, a somewhat understandable one, given.

But you did give me the opportunity to share some parts of fandom history that are slowly being left behind, and the opportunity to share factual information which can help people to more properly, safely and comfortably choose how they exist in fandom spaces and what content and people they engage with, and that's very, very awesome.

(And I didn't mention this above, but also, nobody has to align themselves with any kind of moniker, noun or community, even if how they feel directly reflects the criteria or basis of the aforementioned.

For example, you can be like B, and not call yourself a proshipper. You can simply be someone who doesn't engage with something, but also respects that it does and will exist, and that's that. You can also be like A and avidly engage with something, but choose not to identify as a proshipper for whatever reason. Safety, comfortability, ect.

Likewise, you can be an 'anti' and still think its wrong to cause people actual harm over fictional content. Or be an anti and recognise that fiction isn't reality, but its still something you morally disagree with and would prefer to stay very far away from.)

In any case; the only thing that matters is that the factual history is understood, and you exist in fandom spaces in the way you are most comfortable based on that understanding. Fandoms are spaces meant for community and enjoyment, and your space within that is personal to you.

SRC* is a very good acronym and general rule to follow if you're unsure about which 'side' you want to identify with or if you want to stay far away from either community and label.

*Safe, Respectful, Comfortable.

Hey so uhh. When I made this blog I wasn't particularly aligned in shipping discourse one way or another. But now I have a much more "ship and let ship" vibe, which I believe is generally referred to as "proshipping"? And I know a lot of people have that in their DNI. So feel free to block or unfollow for that.

I'd really like to address the Jaws part of this, because I actually have a post regarding that in my drafts ready to go, but OP makes a very valid, brilliant statement:

It didn't cause shark attacks to rise. It caused fear.

Jaws had no actual impact on sharks in terms of what the sharks did. Jaws didn't inherently increase the danger level of sharks. That stayed exactly the same. Sharks did as they've always done; existed in the ocean and occasionally hunted food that turned out to be a person. Because they're sharks and we chose to be thrashing, yummy prey in their natural habitat.

What Jaws did cause is a widespread misconception about that danger. Which resulted in voluntary human action. We, as people, actively chose to decide this risk factor was suddenly tenfold, and we had to mitigate it by immediately going out and killing as many sharks as we possibly could to reduce it again.

Except. It never changed. Because again; the risk was always exactly the same. And likewise; it didn't actually remove the risk at all. There's still sharks. We're still going in the ocean.

You choose to swim in the ocean, there might be hungry sharks that mistake you for brunch.

And that's not even touching on other arguments like intent and indirect influence.

I just feel like Pete Davidson’s SNL monologue shows the whole proshipping discourse boiled down to the most fundament difference between pros and antis.

Because like.

We have his sister, sitting down to watch GoT with him, and she is a person who has a very clear understanding of fiction vs reality. So when Pete starts getting all puritanical over how the villains are twincesting right in front of their eyes, she’s just like “well, it’s not real, you know.” And he jokes that he’s thinking “am I about to bang this chick?”

That is a direct quote from him, btw.

So there we have it. Sister understands that GoT is fiction, and that fucked up things happening in the fiction we consume does not mean we want to do those fucked up things. And Pete goes “oh, she’s ok with fictional incest in a TV show, clearly my sister would want to fuck me.”

And I get it, it’s a joke. But it’s a joke that so clearly shows the disconnect all this shipping discourse and dark themes in fiction discourse and… and it’s just. That disconnect.

And I don’t know if the antis will ever wrap their minds around “fiction isn’t reality” and before anyone brings up Jaws let me say I KNOW. But also: Jaws didn’t cause shark attacks to rise. It caused fear. Which is what a scary movie is supposed to do. It did it well because thalassophobia is fucking real. Not because sharks are wanton killing machines. Because it was tapping into a primal fear that most of us experience to some level.

sometimes I forget that the server with all my online friends is very antishipper-centric and I let my guard down and then get hit with a person I consider my friend casually saying “just a reminder that proshipping is genuinely disgusting :3” and all my other friends saying “true!” And “I agree totes” and I have to sit there and twiddle my thumbs like “haha yeah totally guys…”

someday they’ll get it

I mean. The only thing I have to say to that is why are you still friends with those people and why are you still in that server.

Not even from a 'being proship is the only way' point but these people are not going to be kind to you at all. You're just putting yourself at risk being with them and being in that space.

I want to ask about stoping the anti cycle.. I’m a people pleaser and had other proship accounts abandoned cause I let antis get into my head.. how do I know for sure this time I won’t fail again with this account and stay strong?

By simply recognising that you will never actually please those people. They do not care about you, and they never will, even if you "reform" and become "one of them."

You will also be the icky ex-proshipper in their eyes. You will always have to atone for the sins of your past. You will always be the wooden stakes upon which they light the sacrificial fire.

Nobody in the anti community can ever actually agree on what is and is not acceptable and where to draw the line. Its why the 'antiship AO3' crashed and burnt before it even took off. None of them could actually form a solid agreement on what was permissible and why.

Questions To Ask Yourself

If they're genuinely just trying to protect people, why are they using abusive tactics, harassment, confrontation and aggression?

What exactly are they hoping to accomplish by hounding you or harassing you or bullying you?

If the outcome of you deleting your blog because of them worth it? What is gained versus what is lost by allowing them to chase you away?

What are you teaching them by allowing them to bully you away?

Antis are so obsessed with children that it's frightening. They shouldn't be that obsessed. It gives some thought. Were the antis really paedophiles?

The thing I've always found most ironic is the fact that antis often use "proshipper spaces are used to groom children!" as a gotcha tagline, while steadfast refusing to understand that their spaces are also used to groom children, abuse children and vulnerable people, and that antis have collectively shared more real life child pornography than proshipping spaces ever have.

I hate Instagram

Every social media platform has muppets like these. I usually just report their comments as spam and false information then block them.

Honestly, if you get these kinds of comments on any of your posts, don't engage. Literally just delete them and block the commenter. They're looking for an argument. They're looking for an opportunity. They want to grandstand and virtue signal. Just don't let them. Trap them in their own little sandbox where they only have each other to sound off against.

Can all ex-antis get a hell yeah? it's hard to get out of that space with all of the abuse and "good vs bad" mindset

Ex-antis can get every single hell yeah. And every single praise for getting themselves out of that kind of destructive environment. You're right in that it can be so incredibly hard to get yourself out of such spaces; cult-like communities with abusive culture like that.

Ex-antis are always welcome on this blog and in the proship side of things. I will never shame someone for having the courage to change and grow and learn.

And for any current antis wondering; no. Getting out of that toxic space does not require you to actively be invested in, create or consume any content you are not comfortable with. It never will require that. That is not what being proship or profiction is about.

The watering down of the words "pedophile", "CSEM/CSAM", "groomer", etc done by antis has slowly spread to outside the fandom circle

The thing about antis is that they are not just in fandom spaces. They are also real people out in the real world with impact and influence.

They're the kind of people who try to get movies and TV shows banned for depicting things they disagree with. They're the kind of people who insert themselves into people's private lives with attempts to control and dictate what they can and cannot do. They're the kind of people who jump to extreme measures and incorrect solutions to real problems.

Having met antis in real life I can certainly say that their real lives and fandom experiences work in tandem.

Fucking insane how people will see something I post that they agree with but they have to virtue signal that they're not a proshipper before expressing their agreement/support even when the post has nothing to do with proshipping.

For your consideration 🙃

https: //www . tumblr . com/curlicuecal/700290919210041344 ? source=share

(By the way you don't need to put gaps in links when sending them, you can just paste the whole link.)

Link to the post for reference.

That aside, nothing about that post is new, per se. Asks like this have been going around for years and are only getting more and more creative the more and more social issues we generate.

Its why on my personal blog, asks like this simply get straight up blocked. I don't just delete them, I flat out block whatever anonymous muppet sent it. On this blog I provide a little bit more leniency, both as an example and because the very nature of this blog is discussing things or pointing out things like why those asks are giant, steaming bait turds.

Some asks will be warranted a smidge of assumed good faith, usually if I suspect its a case of English not being someone's primary language.

But that said; yeah. I fully support the post. Always be wary of asks which try to prod you for virtue signalling on something or asks which try to namedrop others as being a bad person without any attached proof.

Can I tell you why I don't like the anti community anymore? It's okay if you don't but I just need to get it off my chest given I saw someone acting like a victim when their blog was deleted for targeted bullying lol.

But it shouldn't have taken me as long as it did to realize, but I've watched anti's for a while - especially a handful in the ficitonal other / self shipping community, who just absolutely vague and bully those who don't agree with them off this website and out of the comm. It's a community that's supposed to be safe and comfortable with the idea of shipping with fiction characters but 'oh no if you ship with that one you're problematic, you will be vagued about it and we will do everything possible to put you don't til you leave or we start targeted harassment til you're forced to leave'.

It's so wild to me that this space, any space, that preaches being as inclusive as possible and non-judgemental has a long, long list of rules of what can and can not be and if you over step that line, you will no longer be allowed within that space. Their anti space is super bad this kind of stuff. They sit on the idea of being 'morally better' while also being absolutely nasty, not communicating properly when something makes them uncomfortable ( ie making the choice to vague post instead ) and bullying everyone who disagrees with them.

I don't know. It just bothers me so much. You hate to see it but if I had to say 'this is what changed my perspective', that would be it. How can on think themselves the 'moral better' while making others feel like the lowest dirt and isolating them from the community they enjoyed?

Welcome, oh ye enlightened one.

(But on a more serious note, yeah. Most anti spaces are just a cesspit of people tearing apart the weakest link and scrambling to be the Pure One.)

Honestly if my support system weren't extremely anti I'd be more comfortable reblogging and doing stuff that's proship. I have a recognizable art style sadly, and very niche ideas that I've already shared with 'safe' ships so I fear that it'd be extremely easy to get figured out. A couple of them know where I live so its very likely at least one of them would try and do severe damage to my personal life (transphobic family) I've been trying to connect with other proship people, but so far, no luck.

If its possible for you, create a second blog. Not a side-blog, an actual second blog. Build a completely fake identity from scratch. Pick a name wildly different from your own, carefully craft the visual identity of that blog so it looks nothing like your own.

And go fucking ham.

Its still you. You're not an imposter. You're not a fake. You might not be able to be who you are in your "main space" for your personal safety, but you can carve out the freedom to be who you are within the safety net of being anonymous.

Build a community on that blog. Build a support network that isn't going to collapse under you the moment you step on the wrong plank.

The thing about 'niche' is that the world is still so very, very vast and there are still so very many people within it. And in the era of communication its ever easier for people with the same interests and ideas to cross paths. Practice a different art style. Mingle with the people who share your ideas. Spread your ideas far and wide so you're not a shade of red in a sea of blue. Everyone is purple.

I know its very easy for me to say these things and make it out like its so simple. I know its not. I know its risky, and scary, and hard work. But its a chance. Its an opportunity, if you're ever ready to at least attempt it.

talking about antis being weird about family interactions reminds me of an older discourse case where antis accused someone of pedophilia for…

holding an infant correctly

the person held the infant between their legs, you’re SUPPOSED to do that to prevent the development of congenital hip dislocation (aka hip dysplasia)

the baby was also fully clothed

enough with this shit

It reminds me of posts I've seen on sites like Twitter and Reddit where people say things like:

"If you're an adult alone at Disneyland I'm automatically going to assume you're a pedophile."

Some people are just so insufferably radically stupid its almost beyond the point of belief. People wind up like that because of the mass hysteria that people build up surrounding moral grandstanding and being so desperate to not be A Bad Person and Fit In.

I've also seen claims that fathers shouldn't be changing their daughters and so forth. Its just complete brainrot, honestly.

okay, so- this is coming from someone who really hasn't engaged in fandom discourse, especially regarding shipping and such. I dearly hope this doesn't come across as bait or troll, I'm genuinely curious and want to learn. apologies for the possibly-dumb question, but I really just need to ask-

what is proshipping? and what are 'antis'?

you know how it is, when you ask around you always get a biased answer one way or another. "proshippers are pedos" "proshippers all condone incest" "proship Bad and if you interact You Are Bad" (i think these are 'anti' points of view? am i using that term right? that's the rhetoric ive mainly heard). but despite all of that, i don't know if ive ever actually gotten a straight answer as to just.. what it factually is. because it doesn't feel like the sort of thing that you can boil down to insults or accusations or whatnot. it's all just very confusing to me, especially because i come from a place that essentially just told me to avoid like the plague and never look back. sorry, this became a bit of a ramble, lol. thank you so much in advance, i hope i'm not being a bother or insulting with this ^^;

The modern term; 'proship' (s.a; 'proshipping' and 'profiction') is an evolution of an earlier fandom acronym known as: 'SALS.'

Ship And Let Ship

SALS was one of the earliest fandom adoptions and interpretations of the concept of not bullying others for what they shipped or their fandom interests, and not trying to control or dictate what was "allowed" to be shipped or enjoyed. The most notable origin of SALS was during the early years of accessible fandom via Star Trek, and the present homophobia and misogyny in a largely male-dominated community.

As woman became more involved in fandom spaces, the presence of 'other' ships and pairings began to increase. M/M, F/F that wasn't purely for sexual gratification, and M/O and F/O (where 'O' is Other) pairings were popular amongst women, much as they still are today.

Not only did the presence of women in a "male space" receive a not insignificantly negative reaction, so too did them filling the fandom space with their shipping content. Now; sexism and misogyny and homophobia were not entirely to blame. Again as is still very much present today, people simply Did Not Like Certain Ships or Characters. And as they still do today, they'd spread hate about them and to the people who did enjoy them.

Thus: the birth of SALS.

(In other words: I like what I like and it has fuck all to do with you. Shut up and move on.)

Back then, SALS was mostly contained to just that. Ships and characters. Since back in that era 'taboo topics' and 'sexual content' were still pretty covert, people weren't exactly arguing the merits of incest in public forums and at conventions.

However, as all things do, the internet evolved. Society evolved. Media evolved. And so too did 'SALS' evolve in keeping with the new culture and subjects present in fandom spaces.

Suddenly it wasn't just ships and characters to be advocated for. It was themes. Subjects. Kinks. Plots. The more things people found to enjoy, so too did the more things people found to hate.

'Proship' is actually grammatically pro-ship. As in; in support of shipping. This is why I always state that the modern conceptions of proshipping would more accurately be coined profiction. It is no longer just about ships, but fiction as a whole.

However; the core value and sole inherent point of being proship, SALS, profiction and so forth remains exactly the same:

[I/We] believe you have no right to harm others over the [ship/content] they create or consume and [I/we] do not have the right to dictate what is or is not allowed in fandom spaces.

That's it. Don't harass people for what they enjoy fictionally. Don't try to force them into not enjoying or being able to enjoy it.

Of course, the modern adaption varies wildly in terms of 'additional values' thanks to the evolution of the term and what it can encompass. However, there is certainly no obligation to:

Create or consume content you are uncomfortable with.

Create or consume content regarded as 'taboo' or 'triggering.' Such as incest.

Be involved with any aforementioned content beyond turning a blind eye if its not your thing.

Inherently, anyone who says they're 'neutral' on the matter but firmly believes in minding their own business is just a proshipper refusing to use the label if you're taking the term solely at its core value.

In terms of 'antis' they're just the antithesis of the above. Antis are people who generally believe that fiction is irrevocably tied in with who you are, what you believe/condone, and that real-life limitations and values should also apply to fiction.

Although, its is heavy debated and it wildly varies per individual to the degree this is taken.

(E.g: some 'antis' believe you should only write rape fic if you are a victim using it as catharsis or education. Other 'antis' believe there's absolutely no excuse or reason to write rape fic at all.)

Antis typically believe that enjoyment or being invested in content which is regarded as harmful or illegal in real life is morally unsound and reflects that you're a bad or morally unsound person.

Although I disagree, I can honestly say in some aspects I do understand this reasoning. I don't agree, but I do understand why people may come to that conclusion.

As with proshippers, antis vary from people who simply ignore and block content they don't agree with to radicals.

'Anti' is again a prefix. Although modern adoption of the term uses it as a singular signifier, it would grammatically be anti-[fandom], anti-[character], ect. As was commonly used in the past.

The rhetoric that all proshippers are pedophiles or support incest is common-spread and effective 'anti' propaganda. Similar to how so many people believe 'proship' inherently signifies that you must create and/or consume taboo or darker content.

It doesn't.

¹ Proship may also be accurately termed as simply: 'anti-harassment.' ² Its important to note the 'definition' of these terms may vary wildly depending on the individual. However, detailed above is the most historical use and evolution of the terms and their definitions.

It confuses me when people say they're "neutral" on the pro/anti issue. Aside from seeming dismissive, the strange part is that most of these folks actually do share the same beliefs as pro-shippers -- understanding that fiction isn't real, not harassing others over fiction, and being against censorship, etc -- but they don't acknowledge it for some reason? Because by saying that they don't harass other people over fiction and understand that fiction is separate from reality, they are agreeing with pro-shippers.

But then they supposedly don't "care" enough to "pick a side". Alright, so, why are you here? By commenting on pro-ship posts about how neutral you are, you are still getting involved. By saying, "I won't pick a side because [I think the fact that it's a problem in the first place is ridiculous since it's just fiction, come on now,]" you are sharing the exhausted sentiments of pro-shippers! We agree with you. We're also fed up with it!

(Sorry for rambling. Love your blog!)

A lot of it stems from not wanting to be associated with the concept of proshipping that anti-propaganda has perpetrated. The word 'proship' is a massive target on someone's back which has become synonymous for some people with things like pedophile and abuse apologist.

"Not caring enough to pick a side" can often be translated to "I support this one side, but not enough to open myself up to abuse and harassment on its behalf."

It can also be translated as "I support this side, but not enough to spend my time arguing about it with people."

All of which are valid stances to have. I'm friends with people who are both engaged and passive about proshipping.